2014 NA Legal PTW's

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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby rainzoro on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:48 pm

CNC'd? not forged? if i may, i'd like to ask for that info's source
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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby thundercactus on Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:19 am

As far as marketing is concerned, a receiver can be machined from a rough casting and truthfully marketed as "CNC'd"

Gotta find out if it's 6061 or 7075 and if it's machined from casting or from billet
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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby jaybirdritenour on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:54 am

Its a Milspec 7075t6 forging then cnc'd. Watch the Shot Show video's. They did not make their own forgings. They are using the exact same milspec forgings used by real AR15's here in the US. Also there is no such thing as a real receiver forging made with 6061t6. It would cost Wallace too much to make his very own forgings. He would just cut billet before he would make his own forging dies and buy the required amount need to get a forging company to do it for him.
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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby jaybirdritenour on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:58 am

rainzoro wrote:CNC'd? not forged? if i may, i'd like to ask for that info's source


You did not read my post before the one you questioned. I stated its a milspec Forging then its CNC'd. Watch Airsoft GI's shot show interview with Wallace about the new NA PTW and you will see the forgings.
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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby Headshot on Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:33 am

I spoke with a representative from Z shot in person about this and he's their PTW supplier for Zshot he said that the upper and lowers are made from real steel assembly lines and then modified for PTWs then the internals were made by SYATEMA and shipped from SYSTEMA. I actually got to hold and touch the 2014 PTW and its pretty slick! New motor all those goodies. As for the price he said it will be 2500-3000$ US dollar range. I had MAG brand and they let met test it make sure it worked, it did I'm sorry I didn't have any other brand of mags. The model I had felt very solid with a real steel RIS system. So actually they made it more realistic then previous PTWs but with the cereal number and being made here in the US I guess ATF doesn't care. Based off of what I felt and noticed when I handled their PROTOTYPE PTW awesome! Should you go out and buy one as soon as you can? NO they let others do that and find out if they have any problems, they shouldn't but we will see I only handled it for 15 min. Other PTWs that have been Tacked I'm sure will do great compaired to the 2014 he did not say if the boards come waterproof or anything they did put in SYSTEMAS new motor in it so that MIGHT work after 10,000 rounds we will see.
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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby Wallace on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:30 pm

Let's hear this from the horse's mouth!! Sorry guys been away for a while but no I am not a fugitive hiding from the ATF. ;-)

The problem with PTW in America is that back in June of 2010, ATF seized a major shipment of ours (without any prior warning) and declared the lower receiver "illegal Class-3 firearms". This is VERY different from non-serial-numbered AR receivers; it is as if we were trafficking illegal full-auto machine guns. Yes I understand it does not affect Canada right now but if the Canadian government realize the ATF classified PTWs as Class-3 firearms, they probably will do the same. Nonetheless we haven't said anything because we do not want to get existing users in trouble; if one currently owns a PTW he/she is technically "in illegal possession of a Class-3 firearm" as per ATF ruling. But if we keep our mouth shut, you can at least deny knowing any of it.

To go one step further, back in 2010 I actually asked the ATF agents (who came to our office and confiscated our remaining inventory) what we should do about guns already in circulation. Their answer was "do you have records who they went to", and of course I said "no". I was like, "well maybe which dealer the PTWs were sold to, but not individual end users." They looked at each other and said "nah, just contact us if you come across any additional PTWs." So... guess what, I made a point that we will "never came across any PTWs" after the seizure.

Anyhow, ATF actually have been extremely cooperative and understanding. They really just want us to change a few things and that's about it... and in 2012 we finally received an approval from ATF to classify our latest sample submission as "non-gun" (meaning we can sell it again). Now we just need to manufacture the American PTW. Which, as it turned out, was WAY harder than I thought!

Our first hurdle was getting someone to make the lower receiver. Most CNC shops were scared away when they see the PTW receiver... "Do I need an FFL?" is usually their first question, but many just simply shy away and don't even want to touch it. In late 2012 we turned our focus to firearm manufacturers, except Obama suddenly decided he wants to ban guns, sending American public into a gun-buying-frenzy... in early 2013, most firearms have a 7+ month back-order and as a result nobody have time to take on a "one-off" airsoft project from us. In fact, we were close to getting LaRue Tactical to manufacture the lower receiver for us, and then they got busy from the gun-ban. For the entire 2013, we were given the run-around because nobody was willing to accept such a small run.

Fast forward to today, the firearm industry seems to have settled down and we are getting some traction on making the receiver. Which is why we are finally making some announcements (and I come out of the woodwork). We now have several machine shops prepping samples for us and as a result we started making some noise and can share some first-handed intel!

The "American PTW" primarily differs from "International" PTWs for one reason: Most of the external components will be made-in-USA using either firearm-spec components, or actual firearm components. For example, the upper receiver will be machined from an actual, real, AR upper to work with the PTW cylinder. So is the buffer tube. The lower will either be cut from a mil-spec "forging", or 7075-T6 aluminum billets. Certain limited edition is in the work that uses Knight's Armament SR16 upper/lower receivers. We are still in the talk with LaRue about using their upper/lower and integrated rails. We can also modify real LMT MRP piston uppers, Vltor VIS Keymod... you name it. There will also be other components that uses real-steel parts, for example there is no point sourcing the charging handle, barrel nut, castle nut, or even the front sight / gas-block from SYSTEMA. The stock will be real Magpul stock (not Magpul PTS - the polymar formula is NOT the same; PTS stuff do break), the flip-up sights will be real Magpul MBUS, etc. The only exception is that we currently plan to use licensed KAC rails; partly for cost control, partly because the licensed rails are CNC cut out of similar aircraft grade aluminum anyway, but more importantly real URX rails are in short supply and it's not easy to keep production output stable.

Internally, they will all have SYSTEMA components - no 3rd party stuff so you won't have to worry about CTW or FCC crap mixed in it. For the record, FCC made some really good stuff but it seems they have problem on manufacturing tolerance; you can get a batch of stuff from them that's phenomenal, and then the next batch is completely out-of-spec. (First hand experience; we got many PTW warranty / repair shipped to us that FCC was the root of all their issue.) We've never had this problem with SYSTEMA components, and also for this reason you will never t see reputable retailers such as Redwolf carry their products.

In any case, we do appreciate this forum's neutral stand so we can distribute real, first-hand information to our customers. As someone who helped develop the PTW from the very beginning, I am excited we were able to "resurrect" this fantastic training tool in North America. I suppose there is a reason back in 2004 SYSTEMA shipped us the first ever PTW prototype outside of Japan, and that after 3+ years of complete silent that we still have their full engineering support (between 2011-2013 we placing zero orders from SYSTEMA). We've never lost our exclusive distribution rights and I hope we will have your support for this almost historic come-back!



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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby The Reptile House on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:39 pm

Nice one! Just posted this on the forum's Facebook page, too :)
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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby Wallace on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:43 pm

rainzoro wrote:CNC'd? not forged? if i may, i'd like to ask for that info's source


Both, actually. We can make them from mil-spec forging, the problem is that the grip-attachment area was too thin in a forging to allow secured attachment of the motor. We have to add 2 pieces of shims to the side. Considering this is a structural part of the gun, it may not be sufficient so we need to test it (which is part of the beta program). Now granted being 7075-T6, they will be considerably stronger than factory die-cast lower, so we may be OK. Time will tell.

Alternatively, if we cut the lower from a CNC billet, we won't have that problem. Slightly weaker than forging but still miles ahead then factory casting.

If strength is your concern, we are also in the talk with a firearm manufacturer (can't name them yet) to produce full titanium (yes you heard it, titanium) PTW. The entire gun, with rail etc., weights less then 2kg. No pricing yet but it's not "just" Ferrari pricing... more like Le Mans prototype price range.



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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby Wallace on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:44 pm

The Reptile House wrote:Nice one! Just posted this on the forum's Facebook page, too :)


Sweet, thanks!!
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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby The Reptile House on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:57 pm

And blogged too - this is great news!

http://thereptilehouseblog.com/2014/03/25/usa-version/
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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby Mirska- on Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:19 pm

Wallace spotted lol.

Few questions came to mind after reading all that:

1. Do you mean the full production numbers for all year round when you talked about the batch being too small for the RS manufacturer to take interest?

2. Are these going to be sold only in CONUS or can other shops outside the US get them? If their going to have magpul stuff etc. i'd guess the guns would fall under ITAR?

3. Sounds sort of like the US PTW customer are getting a better deal than the rest of us, when you're looking at prices of 2014 PTWs in places like redwolf were already paying 2K USD for a gun with diecast receivers. Furthermore it's quite a contrast for me personally when i paid 700USD for a new PTW CK back in 2006.
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Re: 2014 NA Legal PTW's

Postby jaybirdritenour on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:11 am

Wallace wrote:
rainzoro wrote:CNC'd? not forged? if i may, i'd like to ask for that info's source


Both, actually. We can make them from mil-spec forging, the problem is that the grip-attachment area was too thin in a forging to allow secured attachment of the motor. We have to add 2 pieces of shims to the side. Considering this is a structural part of the gun, it may not be sufficient so we need to test it (which is part of the beta program). Now granted being 7075-T6, they will be considerably stronger than factory die-cast lower, so we may be OK. Time will tell.

Alternatively, if we cut the lower from a CNC billet, we won't have that problem. Slightly weaker than forging but still miles ahead then factory casting.

If strength is your concern, we are also in the talk with a firearm manufacturer (can't name them yet) to produce full titanium (yes you heard it, titanium) PTW. The entire gun, with rail etc., weights less then 2kg. No pricing yet but it's not "just" Ferrari pricing... more like Le Mans prototype price range.



W.

Hey Wallace I sent you a PM. I was working with you at one point. I have a design that will completely eliminate the need for shims when using milspec forgings. Still have a few prototype sitting here.
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